Swollen belly or fat? Side effects from medicine?

pinta

Post   » Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:31 pm


Hydration for kidney pigs is not because they are dehydrated - it's to keep the kidneys flushed(I think? - Josephine?).

Pigs can have problems indicated by enlarged kidneys or "shrunken" (for lack of a better word)kidneys. One of these conditions needs hydration - the othe one shouldn't get hydration. I forget which is which. There was a thread on CG about a kidney pig that had this information. But since I am banned and cannot search the site(as far as I know this has not changed)I can't access that info, which ironically came from me.

I suspect the back molars are rapidly overgrowing because the jaw muscles have weakened(TMJ) and he can no longer grind his teeth down himself. See info on TMJ at: https://www.guinealynx.info/chinsling.html

I'm sorry you have such a bad work situation. There really ought to be a law.

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Ada

Post   » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:12 am


Well, I took Carbonel in tonight, and I guess things aren't looking too good for him. The vet believes he does have edema. She also said it could be something like a tumor starting up in his chest (most of the swelling is up front, not near his back legs.) But she said she doubted that as his breathing and heartbeat were unaltered. She gave him a shot which I assume was a liquid form of the lasix she gave me. She warned me about keeping his fluid intake up especially now that he will be losing the fluid. My poor little guy. He has so much life in him, and every bad thing is happening to him. He also had his teeth trimmed again. His weight was up but I would imagine most of that was the fluid buildup. But I can tell that he has gained weight...his back and butt are filling in nicely.
Is there a difference between kidney failure and kidney disease?

~ada

pinta

Post   » Thu Nov 28, 2002 4:33 am


The kidneys fail due to kidney disease. An ultrasound is probably the best diagnostic (that I know of). In my experience blood tests to show kidney function haven't been reliable.

Lasix is usually contraindicated with kidney problems. Hydration is usually recommended but it depends on whether or not the *kidneys are enlarged or reduced in size. Our vet will usually give a hydration subcue when giving a Lasix injection.

If he appears to be in discomfort pain relief in the form of NSAIDs could help(Rimadyl or Meloxicam).

*The thread at CG on kidney problems was from doe2 about her pig, Nickles. I hope you can search over there and Dinomom is not denying you access to information that could help Carbonel. I wish I could remember the details but I can't and am unable to access my own information due to Dinomom's pettiness.

Josephine
Little Jo Wheek

Post   » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:06 pm


I have never heard of the aluminum hydroxide used in cavies. I do find bloodwork useful, but it does not show renal problems until the kidneys are in renal failure (most healthy tissue compromised). It would, however, also be helpful in diagnosing cancers and cavian leukemia.

I'm not sure by the history really what is even going on. An ultrasound would certainly be helpful for checking kidneys and looking for tumors.

I was going to suggest SQ fluids anyway if it was really kidneys, since it is not hydration that determines fluid therapy in kidney patients. It does keep the kidneys flushed, as pinta suggested. I would even personally go as far as to give SQ fluids daily in a kidney patient.

Since there is edema, SQ fluids are likely contraindicated. What is causing the edema? Perhaps the heart should be examined more closely?

Kidney disease is beginning stages of the acute kidney failure. When an animal is in kidney failure something like 95% or more of the kidneys are shot.

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Ada

Post   » Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:25 am


I did find the thread at CG...I am surprised my name and password still work over there...it has been a long time. Does anyone know whatever happened to Nickles? It kust kind of stopped. It was erie reading it and seeing exactly everything that has been happening to Carbonel happening to Nickles too, although Doe2 didn't mention anything about Nickles swelling up.
The swelling has actually gone down some. I was alarmed this morning when he didn't pounce on his romaine leaf as usual. But he was full of Critical Care, and when I eventually returned him to his cage, he made short work of that leaf!
My original appointment with this vet was for 12/4. I still have the appt. of course, as she still wants to check up on his progress. I am happy with the vet (for once!) I don't think she is ignorant and I also think she is surprised that I have already invested so much time and effort and MONEY into helping him get better. I am sure if there is no change with him she will consider a hydration subcue if I ask. But I am not sure I understand why it is so important that he have one. He is drinking plenty and aside from this morning, his appetite has not dwindled at all. I think after reading Doe2s post I will run out and get some Pedialyte, just in case something happens. But so far he doesn't seem to have a problem with keeping hydrated, and I know firsthand that he isn't retaining as much, either so his kidneys must be "flushing".
She never said if his kidneys were enlarged or smaller. I will ask about the ultrasound (another thing I didn't know was possible for a guinea pig!) I know in the past when I mentioned the possibility of x-rays, she didn't think it was a good idea. But when I brought him in for this problem, she went ahead and took them. So I know she listens (thank God!)
What are some causes for edema? I know she said that the blood sample they took from him yesterday showed that his protein level is up, and I thought she said something to the extent of...with the lasix, his protein levels may be kept down and that may be counterproductive too? Don't quote me on that last one. But I know she was concerned about his protein. There was more fluid and puffiness around the front and his chin. The vet believed there was no buildup in his back area because that area is more active and the activity would encourage fluid dissapation. (Not sure I understand that one, either, but I know the swelling in my knee goes down more if I work it, as opposed to just sitting around on it.) But I am surprised that she said the rear area gets more activity than the front. On my HEALTHY pigs, the butt just kind of stays in one place and the front area seems to do the wandering! But in Carbonel, since I brought him in over a month ago, his back paws do not seem to have the control they used to, and his rear really stays in one place. I don't think his activity is keeping that swelling down, I just don't think it started there. Hopefully by tomorrow it will be down even more.
~ada

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:07 am


Keep in mind an ultrasound is only as good as the technician reading it. If you have a spare pig, you might bring it along for comparison if needed.

It does sound like your pig is well hydrated.

pinta

Post   » Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:53 am


Vicki of JPGPR had a very poorly off rescue that had been left for dead she was nursing. http://www.JPGPR.com/ (Hit articles and scroll to Twain: The Story of a "River Rat".)

He also had swelling in the front area. I asked one of my vets for his opinion and these is exerpts from my emails to Vicki, for what it's worth.

....Other than that he suggested if the edema is hanging
around the hind quarters to suspect lymph and circulatory problems. For
all-over edema, he said to do the lasix thing. He was not surprised at
cracking feet. He said it is to be expected with fluid pressure buildup.

________

Okay, my vet has seen your info. Unfortunately, he doesn't think it
looks too good. He suspects kidney disease. He said something about a
"nephrotic syndrome" ????? and that Twain was losing protein thru the
gut (which you already knew). One good thing - he doesn't think a
problem with the liver is indicated. He spoke to some specialists up
here and the consensus is to try a course of steroids (prednizone) to
try to turn him around.



Twain was suffering from malnutrition and didn't make it in the end. But feelings were if he had not been in such poor shape to start, he might have had a chance.

doe2's Nickles didn't make it. There was probably another thread started that continued updates. Try searching under Nickles at CG.

Pigs with kidney conditions can often be maintained through hydration. Kidney disease like heart disease, doesn't seem curable just treatable. Although the life span will be shortened by kidney disease, the pig can often have a good quality of life thru maintenance.

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Ada

Post   » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:11 am


I can't believe it took me so long to get to your reply, Pinta. Carbonel had a follow up tonight. At first the swelling had seemed to go down, but it seems to have moved. (Vet noticed it more than I did.) Whereas before it was mostly the front two legs and chin, now it is evenly swollen all under his belly. I asked her tonight, because I knew I would be asked, about the hydration subcues. She explained it to me (like you and Lynx did) and said that it was to keep him hydrated so that he could flush our his kidneys. But she said keeping him hydrated isn't the problem, he can't flush it out. And she wrote down some info for me because at this point I told her there would be questions here and I wouldn't know how to answer them. She said his condition is Nephrotic Syndrome, and that he is losing protein (I was mistaken before-I thought she said his protein was up, but it isn't.)
He has had a major drop in appetite. Well maybe major is a bit excessive. He was going at the Critical Care like there was no tomorrow, now he only takes the little bit that his lasix is crushed up in. He won't eat anymore. Sometimes when I give him a lettuce leaf he will just nibble at the edge, other times he will rip it to pieces and inhale it if he doesn't slow down! He won't eat the timothy hay anymore. He hadn't been eating the timothy pellets I bought for him, so I had mixed it with his alfalfa pellets. Now he isn't touching it again, but I found he really has a yen for oats. So I have been mixing his oats with his pellets, and he seems to be eating all three. She also gave me Baytril for him (a generic form, I think). I didn't think Baytril was good for guinea pigs, but it has been so long since I read up on it, maybe I am wrong. But he sure did like it! We got home from the doctors office and he had his lasix, baytril and alternagel and he even ate more of the Critical Care. Which actually brings up another question...is there a danger with guinea pigs (like with humans) taking too many medications at the same time? If I could I would space it a few hours apart, but everything is "twice a day" and if I dose him up before I go to work and then again right after I get home, that is a good rounded off 12 hours. Is there any danger in having the three meds all together??
He is drinking his water now-I am glad because he has been slacking off on that too. I think his front paws are so swollen now that he can't reach the bottle. So I hold it for him, and I was finally able to adjust the cage so I could lower the bottle. The is the first time I have seen him in two days hit the bottle on his own and not wait for me to bring it to him. : )
~ada

pinta

Post   » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:43 am


You can give the meds at the same time. Baytril is fine for pigs. Try and get Lasix in a liquid form or give it to him separately in the pill form. You need to make sure he is getting all of it. You can't be sure when it's in the food.

I wish I could help more.

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Ada

Post   » Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:14 am


Just to put an ending to this story, the little guy passed on yesterday. I kind of knew yesterday morning that he had had enough, and I had planned on calling the vet and bringing him in that evening, but he didn't make it that long. On a kind of happy note, I got to say goodbye to him when I had stopped at home in the morning, rushing to get to the hospital where my sister-in-law was in labor. I kissed him on the ear when I went back to work at 2, and my mother said that by 3, he was gone. So I really do believe he waited. I am so happy he isn't struggling anymore. Thank you everyone for helping.

~ada

pinta

Post   » Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:05 am


I'm so sorry. It must have been so much harder with your work pressures.

I asked my vet about hydrating and she said that when the pig is in kidney failure you shouldn't hydrate since the fluids can't be processed and will back up into the system (lungs?) Otherwise hydration is the procedure for kidney ailments.

Again, I am sorry he didn't make it.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Wed Dec 11, 2002 8:50 am


I'm so sorry you lost him. Glad you had a chance to say good bye.

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