Satins and bone loss--Attn: Hollister families

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Becky

Post   » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:29 pm


Piggster, I think he mostly was interested in offspring of Elvis, but after reading the stuff Deborah posted, I'd most definately get a base-line x-ray done.

Ottosmom, he was quite a scrapper back then, as evidenced by the large missing chunk of ear. He's nothing but sweet, now.

Deborah, I've copied the Netherlands article and will pass it along to my vet. Wow. That's pretty impressive antecdotal evidence, I think.

What's Karen's user name here?

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Becky

Post   » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:33 pm


I wanted to add that it was interesting that they think teddies should be included in the studies. That would mean teddies, texels and skinnies, since they all share the same types of genes, I believe.

Also, Elvis has perked up a bit. Poor baby must have been/is in a fair amount of pain.

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:10 pm


Frizzle (a teddy) has lost a lot of bone density especially in the ribs. She's a sludgy pig (calcium carbonate) so I don't know if it's comparable to the Satin gene.

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lisam

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:01 am


Osteodystrophy is a metabolic disease. Calcium absorption of the body into the bones is not sufficient leading to decalcification of the bones. Fibrous tissue is then formed which leads to instability. Therefore Calcium supplements are not only useless but probably dangerous due to the fact that it could lead to the formation of crystals/bladder stones.

From http://www.rspcareadingguineapigs.co.uk ... satins.htm

I don't quite understand this statement. Perhaps someone can interpret it for me? I don't see how the first three statements neccessarily lead to the fourth.

When Amidala and Artoo were diagnosed with calcium problems I started supplementation. Both passed away peacefully in their sleep months later. I regret I did not get necropsies done now that all this stuff about satins is coming to light. Was it not only a waste of time to supplement with calcium, but was it harmful? Neither had any problems with stones or sludge.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:10 am


If you had no problems with stones or sludge, it could hardly have been harmful.

Maybe it's something like osteoporosis in humans where increased calcium intake may not be adequate and things like fosomax are required to make the calcium actually "stick". I vaguely remember someone saying something about giving fosomax or something similar to a guinea pig but I might be wrong.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:09 am


Therefore Calcium supplements are not only useless but probably dangerous due to the fact that it could lead to the formation of crystals/bladder stones.

For God's sake I have frigging xrays posted showing how calcium supplementation filled in bones. I also observed Shiraz having much improved movement.

I would say xray proof trumps supposition.

Did these people do a bone culture to come up with the diagnosis of Osteodystrophy? We believed Shiraz to have osteopetrosis(all indications were pointing to this) until a bone culture done after she died revealed Paget's Disease. ( She died from a URI due to her immune system being compromised by the Paget's Disease". Her bones were great after calciuym supplementation.) Definitive diagnosis requires cultures and labwork. You cannot diagnose from an xray. An xray can only show you there is a problem.

The jaw can also be affected causing problems eating for the guinea. In hindsight, this was the first indication of Paget's Disease for Shiraz.

· A study in Berlin in 1999 showed 100% of Satin guinea pigs having OD.
Where's the study? How many pigs were involved? How was the OD diagnosed.

I have a real problem with assuming diagnosis based on xrays alone and then saying the problem is incurable and nothing will help. Helllooo? I have xrays saying different.

What we do know is that satins are prone to bone density loss. We also know that in the case of Shiraz, not only was the density loss arrested, it was reversed thru supplementation.

Until everyone starts doing necropsies and getting cultures done our knowledge will stagnate. I suspect Paget's Disease is a relatively rare issue with Satins but shows up when they are young. I also suspect that regardless of the Paget's, Shiraz would still have had a bone density loss and that it could have been managed if that was her only problem.

I would be concerned about supplementing C to these pigs because of the recent research showing extra C can contribute to bone spurs. There may be something happening with the C that contributes to calcium being redistributed. This could be monitored via xrays but if both calcium and C are being supplemented there will be no way of knowing if the C is affecting things.

But the bottom line is I have frigging xrays posted showing the difference calcium supplementation makes to bone density.


pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:22 am


Reading back on that thread, it doesn't look like we supplemented Shiraz with C - just calcium.

User avatar
deborah
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:02 am


KarenLC - posted on page 7 of the Sticky re Cavy Health Record Books. E mail her - I am sure she will be happy to explain in far more technical terms than I am able to do.

Pinta - she is desperate for lots of Xrays for the vets to study and I am sure your input will be invaluable to her.

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Becky

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:49 pm


I have to say, without the info on Shiraz, things would have been handled much differently with Elvis, I'm sure. The x-rays are pretty indisputable evidence. My copy didn't show them very well, but Dr. N. had no problems with telling me to use calcium lactate. I am, once again, grateful and impressed with Pinta's experience and knowledge.

I have to agree. The info in the article needs some explanation and I'll try to ferret it out. (Thanks for the info Deborah) What impressed me the most was just the fact that every satin showed bone density loss. That alone is hard to explain away in any way shape or form.

I'm wondering what sorts of supplementation was done that "didn't work." There are many differences in calciums, so that's where more information is needed. I know there's quite a bit information out there about cats and dogs, but they handle calcium in a different way.

I've already promised Dr. N. when Elvis' time comes, he can do all of the tissue and bone samples to add to the data.

Interesting stuff, that's for sure.

User avatar
lisam

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:13 pm


Yes, I'm sorry for the poor satins. I'm glad this information is coming to light. Did you know that another problem with satins is runts? Unless the breeders use non-satin blood from time to time the babies can be runts, and stay small their entire lives. I have one in my personal herd, and one of my rescue pigs is a very small satin boar.

Evangeline

Post   » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:00 pm


Can I just take a moment and say a great, big, fat HA! to those who called Pinta crazy when she first discovered Shiraz's calcium problem? Apparently, she was jumping to conclusions and making stuff up.

Ha! Ha! And HA!.

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