administering ivermectin - specific question for Lynx

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 6:49 pm


Lynx,

Not to open up old wounds, but I have recently become familiar with the events that took place at CG a few months ago regarding ivermectin dosages.

Personally, I´m very precise and I try to be as accurate as possible with respect to everything, not just guinea pigs. So I know you´re the right person to ask about this. That´s why I´m posting this question here and not there.

My question is not so much with the ratio of how much Zimecterin to water there should be in the mix, but in the water itself. Is it really ok to use water or vegetable oil instead of propylene glycol? I know you said that water and oil mixtures shouldn´t be stored for future use, but I just wanted to double check with you so I can come up with the best mixture possible for my piggies.

Second, when I apply the solution topically, I´m assuming the best way for me to do that is to put 0.25 CC of the solution on the bald spot behind each ear and rub it in? I remember reading a few weeks ago that someone suggested this, but I don´t remember who or where. That was before I realized I would be affected by it. Also, would it be wiser to use 0.30 CC on each ear, because the dosages are being administered separately (one behind each ear)? Or do you think that´s risking overdose? I don´t want to overdose them, but I also want to make sure they get enough ivermectin in their systems to be effective. My gut instinct says that there´s less chance of overdose administering topically, rather than orally, but I could be wrong.

Finally, I know that the cage and all the bedding has to be cleaned. Does it have to be changed upon each treatment? Or can I just clean it out after the 2nd treatment? I´m only planning on giving 2 treatments because Cream is only showing very slight symptoms and Root Beer isn´t showing any at all. They have an entire 5 X 2 grid cage to themselves, so it takes a while to get dirty. I do spot cleaning all the time, but I typically don´t change the entire bedding that often.

Thanks so much for your help.
Scott

P.S. Walnut´s lump is getting smaller every day, and it hasn´t been drained professionally with a needle since we took him to the vet on March 7. Seems as if the $294 visit is paying off. He´s still on tribrissen and will be until the bottle is empty.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 7:16 pm


The easiest form of ivermectin to use is the injectable. It is a liquid vs. a paste and I think works best administered either topically, orally or by injection.

As for what to mix the horse paste with, I have heard people say that the propylene glycol mixes best. I read in one of the reference books that it supposedly is water soluble, so I threw that one in, and my vet friend prefers vegetable oil because it is safer than propylene glycol. You might have problems getting a good suspension with the oil or water (I really don´t know which one would work best if you are not using the propylene glycol). You would have to see for yourself and report back. I only included oral dosing so no one would mix up topical (at 0.5mg/kg) vs. oral (at 0.2mg/kg) dosing

I have only personally used the injectable and only mixed it with canola oil. I had to mix it very thoroughly just before I drew the dose and it would separate on standing. The propylene glycol is one of the two ingredients that the injectable is already mixed with so using that to dilute it further is like adding water to juice and would mix automatically.

These days I use the injectable at full strength in very tiny measured amounts topically and calculate a topical dose at 0.5mg/kg.

I tend to think with the horse paste you will be best off giving it orally. If it is a paste and diluted, a larger volume would be put on the animal and it would be rather oily. I first tried the injectable diluted topically and it was rather messy. The pour-on that is commonly sold is half the strength of the injectable.

I did a general cleaning just before I gave them the dose. It is systemic and works for a while so stray bugs (one would think) would be killed. If you choose to administer three treatments at 10 days apart, it might catch any stray bugs.

Remember the safest thing to do is always to have a vet do this. The notes I have are for reference. Read the ivermectin page thoroughly to understand how the dosing is done. Basically, you have a product with so much drug that is suspended in a solution and a certain volume contains a certain amount of drug. You have a dose rate that is specified in miligrams per kilogram of pig. So you need to figure out how much of the drug your pig needs and then figure out what volume of the drug that has the correct dose in mg. I suggested diluting the ivermectin so it would be easier to measure and give a more accurate dose orally.

I hope you can figure out what I am saying and decide what you want to do from this.

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 7:26 pm


Thanks for the advice. I understand everything you´ve said, and I will let you know about the oil/water mixtures as soon as I find out. Scott

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lisam

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 7:32 pm


I did try vegetable oil with the horse paste, I think canola oil. It was very hard to keep it mixed--it would seperate immediately.

I recently used Ivomec Drench (for sheep) topically at the dosage Lynx figured out for me. It worked very well, with hardly any greasiness on the coat. I was able to put a drop behind each ear and then a few drops down the back using a small syringe. It was much easier than fighting the pigs trying to get it in their mouths.

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:22 pm


OK, update on the water mixture. After learning from my 10th grade chemistry teacher that any water-soluble substance will dissolve easier in warm water than in cold water, I boiled a pot of water.

I let it sit for about a minute, until it stopped bubbling, and carefully measured out 21.75 cc of extremely hot (but no longer boiling) water and put it in a small jar. I figured the volume of the paste was around 1.5 cc, but just to be safe, I only counted 1.0 cc when making the solution.

Then I measured out enough ivermectin to use on a 250 pound horse (22.74 mg) using the measurements on the Zimecterin syringe, and shook VIGOROUSLY for at least 30 to 45 seconds. I’m a pretty big guy, and I was able to shake it with a lot of force. It seemed to mix fine with good consistency.

I only had 2 pigs to treat, so I was able to finish the entire job in less than 5 minutes. They sure love that sugar-laced vitamin C syrup. Once I had the ivermectin in the syringe, I filled the rest of the empty space with the C syrup to make it taste good. I shot the full 1.0 cc (only 0.2 cc of it was the ivermectin mix - each pig weighs between 950-1000 g) into each of their mouths, and then dumped the excess ivermectin/water mix down the drain. I really don’t have any idea how the chemicals would react if allowed to sit longer.

I think that as long as you use it quickly after mixing, water is a very good (and safe) option to mix with the horse paste. Obviously, like Lynx, I tend to err on the side of caution. But in this particular case, I felt that I knew exactly what I was doing and the benefit significantly outweighed the risk. I double checked all of the calculations on the info page, and then went ahead with the procedure. I don’t want to sound like a preacher, but no one should do this on their own unless they are TOTALLY confident that they’re doing it right.

After giving them the medicine, I replaced all the bedding where they sleep, under their hideaway houses. I also mixed up the bedding in the remainder of the cage, which is still relatively clean, because I laid it down only 2 days ago. When I give them their next round of ivermectin on March 24, I will completely change all the bedding to make sure the medicine works properly and the mites don’t come back.

The only way I could have done this more accurately would be to use a scale to measure out 1.216 grams of the paste on a scale (1/5 of the total 6.08 grams in the tube used to treat a 1250 pound horse) instead of using the syringe that the paste comes packaged in to make the measurement. In fact, if I had a good enough scale, I could have measured a much smaller amount of paste, mixed it with less water, gotten the same concentration of ivermectin, and wasted a lot less of the paste. But once again, and I´m sure Lynx will concur, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT YOU´RE DOING, and if you have ANY doubt in your mind whatsoever, GO TO THE VET. A sick piggy with a $150 vet bill is better than a dead piggy.

Scott
Last edited by CenterFielderNo5 on Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:46 pm


Ah, sounds good. I had to read it a couple times to make sure I understood what you did. I´m glad the warm water worked fine. I don´t know what effect heat would have on ivermectin so you might want to try it with not near boiling but just hot water next time (but that was a creative solution).

And yes, it is very, very important you thoroughly understand how the math was done and how the proper dose is figured. That´s why I tried to make it as absolutely clear as I could.

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:12 pm


That´s actually pretty much what I did - by the time I had the 21.75 cc of water measured, it definitely couldn´t have been boiling anymore. I only had a 3 cc syringe to measure it, and I didn´t want the water in the hub of the syringe (thanks Kara) to mess up the measurement. So I filled it up to 3 cc and emptied out 2 cc at a time, leaving 1 cc of water in the syringe. I did this 11 times, and on the last time, I only removed 1.75 cc instead of 2. Then I mixed in the 1.216 grams (approximate - based only on the measurements on the syringe itself) from the syringe with the horse paste and started shaking like a madman to mix it up. It was a little foamy at the top from all the shaking, but I thought the consistency was definitely satisfactory.
Last edited by CenterFielderNo5 on Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:36 pm


You may want to do more than 2 treatments. I tried to get away with 3 treatments and the mites came back. I am currently on the third of five treatments for ALL of the girls. I under treated 2 of them last time by only doing 3 treatments. I treated Penny with 5 treatments because she had a worse case. But, like I said, now I am treating them ALL again! Would have been better to treat them all with 5 treatments from the start!

I think these piggies are more confusing than my kids! I just dosed them all and every time I do I check and recheck and recheck again to make sure I am giving the right amount. I think I am becoming neurotic about Ivermectin! The stuff works wonders though. I have 3 happy piggers to show it!

Lynx... how many treatments is the norm these days? Do you treat any of your pigs once a month as a preventative?

Kara
Last edited by KarasKavies on Sat Mar 16, 2002 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:11 am


Once a month wouldn´t do much good. It would be better to use it at least twice (about 10 days later), so you catch the hatching eggs.

I treat mine when I think there may be a problem, not routinely. In the two plus years I have had pigs, perhaps four times. First, with a couple patches of hairloss on Nina´s end, also if there was general hair loss (in one case I think it was ovarian cysts instead) or excessive scratching and for the fur mites.

I have given 3 or 4 doses if it looks like it would help.

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KarasKavies
For the love of my girls!

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:14 am


Thank you Lynx. I just hope after this round the mites stay away for a LONG time. The poor pigs suffer so much when they have them. It makes a huge difference in their personality. I was just hoping that I could give it once a month to prevent another out break of the mites.

Kara

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:14 am


Kara,

I was just thinking that myself. As long as it can´t harm the piggies, the more mite-killer you use the better it will be.

The thing is, without an extremely fine-tuned scale that can measure to 0.001 grams, I can only make 5 treatments out of a $17 tube of the horse paste. But I guess that even without a scale, 25 weeks of treatment (for up to 105 pigs per week, if I ever had that many :P) is still cheaper than a single vet visit. And that´s paying a high markup (15.95 + tax) for a tube that should really be priced around $12.

I think I´m going to give 3 treatments to the girls, and 3 treatments to the boys. I´ll start the boys´ first treatment in 2 1/2 weeks at the same time the girls get their last treatment. That will use up the 5 treatments from the tube I bought today. It will also give the boys extra time to gain some more weight, although they´re all already around a pound. Walnut is the biggest, and he weighed in at 522 grams when we took him in on March 7 for the blister on his ear. They´ll be exactly 11 weeks when they get their first treatment.

After I rid the entire herd of mites this time, I´m planning to do preventative maintance in the future, but I´m not sure of the best method. If you give it once a month, I´d assume they should only get one treatment? Or would it better to give them 2 doses, 10 days apart, and wait 2-3 months between preventative treatments?

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:17 am


Wow, I took so much time making sure that :P smiley face came out right that I didn´t notice the 2 posts in the last 5 minutes :O

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:24 am


Sorry to keep posting consecutive messages, but I just wanted to mention that Cream already looks to be more active, and it´s only been about four hours since I gave her the first treatment. Maybe it´s just a case of me seeing the [piggie] world through rose-colored glasses, but she seemed to be running around a little more and eating hay, which she rarely does at night. Maybe she´s just high.  :D Scott
Last edited by CenterFielderNo5 on Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 12:48 am


That is too much for a tube of ivermectin. I´ve heard you can get a 50cc bottle for $35 or $40 on the internet and if you used a needled syringe and applied it topically, you might have no waste at all (and no need to mix). I hear it has a long shelf life. The injectable 50cc bottles have a rubbery stopper that a needle can be pushed through. You turn it upside down and draw out the tiny dose. I drip it carefully behind the ears and sometimes in problem areas like the rump where I have had fur mites, fold over the fur and rub slightly.

My local store sells the tubes of horsepaste for about $10 a tube.

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CenterFielderNo5

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 2:15 am


Yeah, that´s what I was talking about...... I got charged $15.95 for the tube that you get for $10. I think you might have meant to write the stuff about the 50cc bottles on the other thread that Kara started ;)

BTW, how many mg are there in the 50cc bottles, and where can I get them online?

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 7:36 am


The 50cc bottles have 10 mg/cc so you are looking at 500mg (quite alot). It would last a very long time. If you do a search on Google ( www.google.com ) you ought to be able to track down someone with a reasonably priced product. You can also find the paste this way too.

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ladyveg

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 7:43 am


About the horse paste, before using, it may be wise to squirt the entire contents of the tube into a small sealable container and stir it up really well. Since it´s meant to be used in one shot with one large animal, I don´t know if the actual Ivermectin is mixed completely evenly through the paste or if it can be more concentrated in spots than others. Lynx, maybe you already cover this. But Debbie "The Rat Lady" Ducommun suggests this when using the horse paste to treat rats, since the amount of paste used is so small.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 7:51 am


I know I have heard this claim. But I firmly believe the product is evenly distributed throughout the tube. If it weren´t there would be no way to give a partial dose (250 pounds) and they would never be able to put the correct dose in a tube in the first place. It makes no sense to believe they would squirt the entire dose in the tube and then add the carrier if there were measurements for different weights. I think Evangeline believes some paste products are better than others though.

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ladyveg

Post   » Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:05 am


Lynx, what you are saying makes sense. I probably will continue to mix the horse paste, as I only use it for my rats, and their dosage is extremely small. I like to do things the hard way. I prefer using the liquid Ivermectin straight, as you describe, using the small syringe and dripping it behind the ears. I had one vet drip a little into the ears of a rescue pig that she thought had ear mites.

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