Male with bladder stone--need a good vet

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capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:13 pm


Hey guys,

Peppi has been eating and drinking fairly well on his own. We gave him some CC last night, just to be sure. He ate a big pile of veggies this morning, and a Critter Berry. We're also continuing with the Polycitra and shilintong. He seems alert, so I'm hoping this means he will recover even more quickly than last time. Of course we are also giving him Metacam.

The stone was huge. Dr. Voss gave it to us because it looks exactly the same composition as the old stone, which was already analyzed. This thing is about the size of a chick pea. I'll take a picture of it and post it soon, so you can see. I can't believe it got so big in only six weeks! I'm dreading that at this rate something else will form, but we're hoping all the stuff we're giving him will prevent it, and if not that, at least slow the growth of another one.

Thanks again for all the well wishes--they are always very appreciated!

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:19 pm


I understand how discouraging this is. Have you tried shilintong (not going back to check)? I imagine you've made dietary changes.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:22 pm


With luck, the shilintong and polycitra will help keep the materials that make up stones from binding with each other and instead flush it all out.

Gilbert and Sully send piggy kisses and good wishes.

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:26 pm


Hi everyone,

Thought I'd take a quick second to post the picture of Peppi's stone. This is the second stone, the one removed Monday.
Image

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:22 pm


Wow, that is a big stone!

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TWP_2

Post   » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:37 pm


Compare to Sully's recent stone...poor Peppi!

Of course, Sully passed his. It was a miracle of sorts. I don't think the one Peppi has would pass under any circumstances.

Jim

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Fossil Barb

Post   » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:10 pm


That is a doozer. So glad he's doing ok after removal of the 'monument'. Ouch.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:41 pm


That thing is absolutely HUGE.

Muffin had a huge stone too, but nothing as bit as yours. And hers looked entirely different - more like a little white stone.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:26 pm


Wow, Peppi. That must have filled your entire bladder. Poor little guy.

I'm sending you some chin scratches...

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:25 pm


TWP_2, I'm still surprised Sully was even able to pass that stone!

Peppi is back in with Chester in their usual cage. He hasn't regained the weight he lost since his first surgery, but has remained steady at around 1075 to 1100 grams. We plan to get him in for an x-ray next week to see if anything new has formed. He's seemed very happy and energetic, so I think having that thing out of there really helped. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that another one doesn't appear despite all the stuff we're trying.

TwoWhitePiggies

Post   » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:35 pm


How's Peppi doing?

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:09 pm


Hi, thanks for asking about Peppi. I haven't been on the boards much the past few days. We found out on Wednesday with an x-ray that another stone is already forming in Peppi's bladder, less than 3 weeks after his second surgery. We're both feeling really down about this because at this point it seems like the stones are a death sentence for him, and he's living on borrowed time.

Our vet has been posting on VIN and hasn't gotten any advice past what we're already doing. Peppi's getting his tablet of shilintong daily (half in the morning and evening), Polycitra which we decided to try to up the dose to 0.2 CC instead of 1.5 to see if it will make a difference, Critter Berries, careful management of diet, Metacam to help with pain, etc., but they don't seem to be helping. We have kept lowering the amount of pellets we feed, and now we're down to giving about 10 or so pellets per dish in Chester and Peppi's cage. After the second surgery our vet said we could try eliminating them, but Peppi loves them so much and screams for them in the afternoon and I feel like completely getting rid of all of them would lower his quality of life in the happiness department. Now that he's forming another stone so fast, the vet thinks it probably isn't the pellets or really diet but that Peppi's older age is causing his body to not process and/or eliminate calcium properly any more.

When Sully passed that big stone, did it just happen pretty much spontaneously? Was he on Sub Qs at all, or was his bladder expressed? The stone(s) (it looks like it may be two "smaller" stones next to each other) look kind of similar in size to the one he passed.

It just sucks because he seems so normal and healthy otherwise, and I hate thinking about putting an animal to sleep. I have never had to do it before, and the pigs we have now are the first animals I've had since I was about 13. I wish we could just keep removing the stones and giving him more and more time, but it's hard to know whether that is something we would be doing for him or for ourselves. We don't plan any more surgeries as it seems that he will just form stone after stone, and I don't want to stress him out. I just want him to be as strong and happy as he can be for as long as he can, and hope that some of the stuff we're doing will slow this thing down somehow. I have always felt very badly for people here dealing with bladder stones or any difficult problems with their pigs, but only now that we're experiencing it first hand can I truly understand how frustrating and sad it can really be.

Sorry for the long post! I guess I ended up having to vent.

capybara
Supporter in '13

Post   » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:42 pm


Also quick question. We used to give .15 cc Metacam every other day for Peppi's arthritis when he weighed 1250 grams. Now his new weight has steadily been 1050-1075, and we're giving Metacam daily. I know we should lower the dose. What would anyone recommend? I did the math before to figure out the first dose, but I'm not sure if it's better to use the "rat dose" the other dose or what? Plus, Im not entirely confident with my math skills. After surgery the amount the label from the vet said to give was .2 cc, which I thought seemed too high.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:51 pm


Post-surgical acute pain will require a higher dose than chronic pain management. 0.2 cc is 0.3 mg Metacam, if you have the standard 1.5 mg/cc suspension (purple bottle).

I don't want to sound cavalier with Metacam, or any drug, but we have given quite a bit more than this, even, for acute postsurgical or post-dental work pain. I hope Mum sees this thread, because I think she uses 0.15cc Metacam daily for some of her pigs, which I think are in Peppi's weight range. I'll shut up now so she can get it straight.

Bottom line is I'm not sure you necessarily need to lower it.

Best wishes to Peppi and to you. I'm hopeful the stones are small and he can pass them.

Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a veterinary muscle relaxant and if so, might it help Peppi and other stone pigs pass small stones themselves?

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:58 pm


Yes, I give 0.15 cc daily for arthritic pigs, regardless of weight.

As Talishan says, some post-surgical pigs get much more - even twice a day for a day or two.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:32 pm


I know how discouraging it is to see the recurrance of stones. I hope one day we have better advice to help people manage their guinea pigs who are forming stones.

You have my sympathy.

GP Lover
My home, ruled by pigs!

Post   » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:41 pm


I'm sorry to hear about Peppi's bladder stones. Is he drinking tap water? If so, you may want to switch to bottled spring water.

I wish someone could figure out why some gps just continue to make bladder stones so we could find a way to stop the cycle.

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scoot

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:55 am


I was looking in an old book on the Laboratory Care of Animals (from about 1960) and it mentioned that sufficient magnesium in the diet was important for the prevention of calcium deposits.

Sorry I can't remember the name but I can get it on Tuesday and post the details.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:04 am


Yes, it is not just the calcium/phosophorus ratio but magnesium also plays a part. I don't know precisely what the best ratios of the three are.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:55 am


but magnesium also plays a part.
Ah - that's very interesting and bears more research I would think.

I wonder if the key to preventing all these problems lies somewhere in that?

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