Should I worry? Lazy "rag doll" pig

User avatar
poppypiggy

Post   » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:18 am


Jippi! Further investigations brought me to a Vet medicine page, and there I found "Fortekor vet. Novartis, ACE-inhibitor, ATCvet no.: QC09A A07, tablets 2,5 mg contain Benazepril. hydrochlorid. 2,5 mg, const. q.s."!

It says Fortekor is used for treatment of heart failure, especially "dilated cardiomyopati and mitralisinsuffisiens" (??? my translation - sorry, I am not too familiar with medical nomenclature) in dogs, and in cats tentatively to reduce proteinuri in chronic kidney failiure when PCR (???) is > 1.

I think Fortekor is about the same as Lotensin. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

User avatar
Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:29 am


Yes, Fortekor is exactly right - it's a brand name for benazepril for veterinary use.

User avatar
poppypiggy

Post   » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:49 am


Thanks, Mum!

I have looked on Poppys nipples, and they might be a bit larger than on the others, and a little bit crusty. But isn't that just because she has had a pup and nursed her? Or will the nipples always go back to the size they had before? (I don't think *mine* did after nursing two greedy babies! :-) )

Anyway - I might have found a new vet! I phoned a clinic I just have discovered, and when I asked if any of the vets there knows anything about guinea pigs, the very friendly receptionist assured me that dr. B. has worked with exotics for a long time, that he is very knowledgeable, fond of animals (hopefully more than of money!) and more than willing to read up on subjects he don't know enough about. That sounds more promising than any of the others, so I got an appointment for Thursday.

I will bring printouts from GL with me in the hope that he is willing to discuss. Reports will follow!

User avatar
Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:11 am


and a little bit crusty.
This is a sign of cysts. She's not still nursing, right?

User avatar
poppypiggy

Post   » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:34 am


No, her pup was born in March.

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:01 am


Looks like you got pretty good on the translation. I'm assuming "dilated cardiomyopati and mitralisinsuffisiens" is dilated cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart) and mitral valve stiffness (prolapse? stenosis?) which would be exactly what the benazepril treats. Pretty cool that you were able to find it. The Latin roots of most medical words must be conserved even in Norwegan.

"If pigs insist on beeing sick, then at least they chould suffer from something that is easily diagnosed and treated!"
I couldn't agree more!

User avatar
poppypiggy

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:51 am


rshevin: Thanks! It is right that in Norwegian many medical words have Latin roots, but there are also what I guess could be called "truly Norwegian" words, or maby "popular" words, for most medical terms, so the "Medical Tribe Language" is sometimes very difficult to understand if you are not medically trained. I am not, but had some biology in school, so at least I understand a few Latin words!

The visit to the vet today was encouraging in the way that this new (to me) vet was very friendly and truly devoted to his work - the way he handled Poppy convinced me of that. He is not a guinea pig expert though, but I think he can be one with time.

He listened to Poppys heart and could not hear anything wrong, and I guess that is not very surprising, since she is so young.

Than he palpated her abdomen, and agreed with me that it is unusually soft and "spongy" in the lower part. But after a thorough examination he said that that is because her intestines can be felt directly under her skin! She must have some innate defect since she does not have, or just have reminiscenses of, (directly translated from Norwegian) oblique abdominal muscles! On humans these muscles go from the hips down to the perlvis and hold the lower abdomen togehter, more or less. (Is this understandable? To me it sounds a bit strange in English, but I don't know an other way to explain it.)

The vet said she has the "Rectus abdominus", but did not mention the Latin names for the missing muscels, only the Norwegian, and I forgot to ask. When looking at this guinea pig anathomy image

http://www.netherworld.com/%7Ecowboy/An ... alView.jpg

it seems to be likely, since her abdomen is bulging out in the area where I suppose the cutaneous trunk muscles of her upper body end - one little soft bulge to each side. It sounds very unusual, so I guess I have to examine her thoroughly over again tonight!

The vet also said that this could be the reason for her inactiveness, as her chest, lungs and diaphragm does not operate effectively when her lower body misses some of the support it should have. Or at least this is how I understood what he said.

The fact that she has given birht to a healthy pup should more or less rule out heart issues, he thinks.

I asked about ovarian cysts, but he told me that he is not very good with ultra sound diagnostics, and that the expert collegue is in Utrecht, Netherlands, at the moment, taking a specialist course in ultra sound diagnostics, if I understood him right! Utrecht is suppoed to be one of the best vet schools in Europe, so will I consider talking to this collegue when she's back.

I gave the vet the printouts from GL, and he had not heard about GL before, but was positive when I told what I have been learnig here. He thought it looked cool, and said he would like to read it over and even go to there to see more for himself. I hope he does, and read up to learn even more about piggies!

So what now? I am partly reassured, but not totally convinced that Poppys heart and ovaries are fine. On the other hand there isn't anything particular that can't be explained by this defect. Except the slight bonyness of Poppys upper body, perhaps. I guess I have to observe her for some time, and than see if I still feel that something is not quite right. And as I said, perhaps talk to the ultra sound vet when she's back.

Does anyone have other suggestions? Should I have insited on x-rays?

User avatar
Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:08 pm


An xray would have shown you if she had an enlarged heart, which is common in my experience.

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:39 pm


Your explaination of the abdominal muscle problem makes perfect sense to me and also with my understanding of her physical issues. I don't know what the Lain name for oblique muscle is but oblique is commonly refered to in English, particurally when doing situps.

Be VERY careful holding her from now on. The muscles in the belly provide a lot of support and protection for the intestines. I would suggest letting her walk into a box, towel, pillow, etc from now on when picking her up. I can't believe she gave birth to a healthy pup without obliques!

I'm no expert but I've never heard of this condition before. I wouldn't be surprised if she has other muscular defects, including heart problems though. The closest thing I can visualize that's common is a hernia, which is when the abdominal muscle wall either doesn't close completely before birth or weakens due to age and exertion. The only one I've ever seen and felt in real life was limited to a single spot on the belly, not the entire abdomen so this doesn't seem as likely to me as what the vet described.

Best of luck. I don't know what else to recommend other than care with carrying her. I'm sure an x-ray wouldn't hurt.

User avatar
poppypiggy

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:13 pm


It sounds like I have managed to explain the issue to you, rshevin - Poppy can't do the situps! Lol!

Jokes aside - I will of course handle my beautiful Poppy even gentler and more carefully from now on, that's for sure! But the more I think about it, the stranger it seems that she is lacking these muscles. The possibility that she might have other muscular defects sounds logical. I really have to watch her carefully.

And just think about that she gave birth to baby Molly! Doesn't that sound like a little wonder?

I agree on the x-ray, Mum, but I think I will wait untill the ultra sound vet is back from Utrecht, and discuss it with her. I just looked at the clinikcs homepage, and it says that she has spesialized in internal medicine and cardiology in small animals, so she might be the best vet in town on the topic.

Next week I might be able to show a picture of this extraordinary piggy that doesn't do the situps!

User avatar
rshevin

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:47 pm


I'm curious, can she stand on her hind legs to beg for treats? If I'm visualizing the anatomy correctly, standing would mostly use the back and butt muscles but going back down would use the abdominals but probably the rectus abdominus that the vet mentioned (that's the one that goes straight down your middle to create a "six pack"). I agree this is a very strange condition indeed.

Fweeprluvr

Post   » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:32 pm


I've seen piggies with bellies that hang out past their ribcages, and pigs that seem to have a straight line from shoulder to hips. I personally am not convinced that you have a pig that is different from other pigs.

My heart pig has had the same symptoms (without the floppiness) of being calm since a baby. She is 12 months old now, and was diagnosed (with an X-ray) at 10 months as having an enlarged heart that is pushing up on her trachea and causing her to cough. She is on Lotensin now an ddoing better. So it does happen in the younger ones too.

Mum has a heart pig that has had multiple litters in the past (before she owned her) so I don't think that just because she was able to give birth, she is not a heart pig.

The other vet sounds promising, I hope that one can help more.

Post Reply