Soft poop: what the vet said
Necropsy came in today. She's sending it in the mail and I can probably do a better job of talking about it once it's in my hands because she used a lot of big words and I took terrible notes. I'll try to sum up though.
Intussusception was the official cause of death. Probably went into shock from the pain. This can be caused by bacteria, so we're thinking the Coccidia actually led to this. The tissues showed swelling and hemorraging of the intestines - the connective tissues that holds intestines in place. There was inflammation of the omentum and an infection of the abdomen. Inside there was also bacteria found which might have been clostridium, but she couldn't tell for sure. So all of this bacteria, infections, etc. most likely lead to the telescoping of her intestines.
But why couldn't PC get rid of the Coccicia? The weird thing they found was that her pancreas has lesions which resembled a pancreas with the onset of diabetes. PC's glucose levels were always normal (81) and she never displayed signs of diabetes. So that's odd. Either she had diabetes towards the end and we didn't see it because there would be no reason to suspect this OR there's something else going on in the pancreas that lesions would cause that just happens to resemble diabetes. Either way, they said her pancreas looked weird.
They think this *might* have had something to do with her lowered immune system leading to her not being able to fight the infections, and ultimately her passing.
There was no real good answer though. The doc was even hoping for a "well we see THIS which caused THIS and lead to THAT" but there isn't any of that. We know the intussusception did her in, but we still don't *really* know why.
Intussusception was the official cause of death. Probably went into shock from the pain. This can be caused by bacteria, so we're thinking the Coccidia actually led to this. The tissues showed swelling and hemorraging of the intestines - the connective tissues that holds intestines in place. There was inflammation of the omentum and an infection of the abdomen. Inside there was also bacteria found which might have been clostridium, but she couldn't tell for sure. So all of this bacteria, infections, etc. most likely lead to the telescoping of her intestines.
But why couldn't PC get rid of the Coccicia? The weird thing they found was that her pancreas has lesions which resembled a pancreas with the onset of diabetes. PC's glucose levels were always normal (81) and she never displayed signs of diabetes. So that's odd. Either she had diabetes towards the end and we didn't see it because there would be no reason to suspect this OR there's something else going on in the pancreas that lesions would cause that just happens to resemble diabetes. Either way, they said her pancreas looked weird.
They think this *might* have had something to do with her lowered immune system leading to her not being able to fight the infections, and ultimately her passing.
There was no real good answer though. The doc was even hoping for a "well we see THIS which caused THIS and lead to THAT" but there isn't any of that. We know the intussusception did her in, but we still don't *really* know why.
Actually like you said, it could have been all from the coccidia.
I can't remember if I posted about this here before or not, but I once saw a case of a dog that was having diarrhea for a long time and had a bloated tummy and the owner spent a fortune trying to figure out what was wrong, but when they came to the clinic I was working at for a second opinion and the doctor looked through all the extensive records, he found that a simple basic fecal parasite exam was never done, so he did one and it was positive for ALOT of Coccidia. This dog was in really bad shape, and we started the Albon, but it was really too late. The dog died shortly thereafter. If a basic fecal test had been done in the beginning on this dog, she might not have had to die.
I haven't done fecals on all my pigs, and I know most people don't do them, although I have heard on here that certain areas are known for having Coccidia, it really isn't something that everyone just checks for in guinea pigs, so I don't think you are to blame, like I said, I haven't tested all of mine either.
I think this does tell you that there wasn't anything else to do. The intussusception might have been fixed with surgery, but you didn't feel that she was strong enough for surgery, and it isn't an easy one in dogs, I can't imagine how tiny and tricky it must be to do in little guinea pigs. But she also had the other issues of bacteria and the pancreas thing.
This is such a tragic story, but I don't see how you could have done anything better knowing what you knew when you knew it.
I can't remember if I posted about this here before or not, but I once saw a case of a dog that was having diarrhea for a long time and had a bloated tummy and the owner spent a fortune trying to figure out what was wrong, but when they came to the clinic I was working at for a second opinion and the doctor looked through all the extensive records, he found that a simple basic fecal parasite exam was never done, so he did one and it was positive for ALOT of Coccidia. This dog was in really bad shape, and we started the Albon, but it was really too late. The dog died shortly thereafter. If a basic fecal test had been done in the beginning on this dog, she might not have had to die.
I haven't done fecals on all my pigs, and I know most people don't do them, although I have heard on here that certain areas are known for having Coccidia, it really isn't something that everyone just checks for in guinea pigs, so I don't think you are to blame, like I said, I haven't tested all of mine either.
I think this does tell you that there wasn't anything else to do. The intussusception might have been fixed with surgery, but you didn't feel that she was strong enough for surgery, and it isn't an easy one in dogs, I can't imagine how tiny and tricky it must be to do in little guinea pigs. But she also had the other issues of bacteria and the pancreas thing.
This is such a tragic story, but I don't see how you could have done anything better knowing what you knew when you knew it.
Well since the intussuseption was apparently so painful that it caused her passing, I don't think surgery was even an option. It happened so fast and then that was it. I did do fecals on PC and coccidia didn't show up until a month later when the new doc ran a new fecal. It's possible it was already too late at that point, but I still find it odd that she wasn't able to ever get rid of the Coccidia.
But, yeah, I don't know. It's still a shame.
But, yeah, I don't know. It's still a shame.
- Maisiesmom
- Supporter in '11
I'm sorry too, somechick. You went through the wringer with that pig. My thoughts are with you.
Thanks guys. Henry and Sanford tested negative for Coccidia last week and when I get my new little guys I'll bring in more poo for a retest. I'm getting Piggie cremated and she should arrive soon I hope. I don't plan to display it because that's morbid, but I have a little box that I put some of her things in.
I really don't know all that much about this, but intussuseption in humans almost always happens in infants and sometimes is due to a defect in the intestines. Don't know how or if that translates to guinea pigs, but I believe that's the case with dogs/cats.
Again, don't know that much, but I'd suspect that the overgrowth of coccidia really had more to do with a compromised immune system. In other words, it was as much a symptom of something else going on as it was a cause.
I always cremate my animals. I now have four pig boxes in the pig room. I find it comforting. I also always open the box and put in a bit of hay and a few poos as a little offering to their little guinea spirits.
Again, don't know that much, but I'd suspect that the overgrowth of coccidia really had more to do with a compromised immune system. In other words, it was as much a symptom of something else going on as it was a cause.
I always cremate my animals. I now have four pig boxes in the pig room. I find it comforting. I also always open the box and put in a bit of hay and a few poos as a little offering to their little guinea spirits.
"intussuseption in humans almost always happens in infants and sometimes is due to a defect in the intestines."
Right, sounds like she had congenital abnormalities to me. I *really* believe that PC was suffering from megacolon. Some of these findings are consistent with the syndrome, and I believe maybe a necropsy in a University setting would have found more indicators of the disease. (Most folks don't have easy access to this kind of necropsy--don't beat yourself up again!)
Also, some funky things can happen to a critter's liver, pancreas, and such at peri-mortem, so I'm not sure you can really conclude anything about her pancreas. I will say megacolon rabbits under stress, like a vet visit, tend to shoot really high glucoses, then return to normal without intervention once calm and recovered a day or two at home.
At least you do see now you did all you could, and you wouldn't have wanted PC to continue on this Earth if she had to be here in pain. Be at peace, healing thoughts to you.
Right, sounds like she had congenital abnormalities to me. I *really* believe that PC was suffering from megacolon. Some of these findings are consistent with the syndrome, and I believe maybe a necropsy in a University setting would have found more indicators of the disease. (Most folks don't have easy access to this kind of necropsy--don't beat yourself up again!)
Also, some funky things can happen to a critter's liver, pancreas, and such at peri-mortem, so I'm not sure you can really conclude anything about her pancreas. I will say megacolon rabbits under stress, like a vet visit, tend to shoot really high glucoses, then return to normal without intervention once calm and recovered a day or two at home.
At least you do see now you did all you could, and you wouldn't have wanted PC to continue on this Earth if she had to be here in pain. Be at peace, healing thoughts to you.
Awwww! Seriously, that is so sweet.I always cremate my animals. I now have four pig boxes in the pig room. I find it comforting. I also always open the box and put in a bit of hay and a few poos as a little offering to their little guinea spirits.
I have at least 30 little boxes that I have collected through the years (dogs and cats and 1 ferret). I have to figure out where to scatter them before I die.
Well we did send the tissue out to a pathology lab in CA. My vet did her own necropsy but then sent the tissues out for a more thorough evaluation. I don't know that it was a university though. Anyway, once I get the report in the mail, I'll read through it and see if there's anything else I notice.
And of course I wouldn't want her to exist in a state of pain. I just wonder that if it was the coccidia, if I had caught it sooner, maybe it wouldn't have gotten so out of control. It still seems odd to me that she wasn't able to get rid of it no matter what we did. There seem to be pigs in worse condition on the medical board that bounce back.
I've read a bunch on intussuseption in humans and dogs since finding out about this. I did read that in humans it's an infant-thing and in dogs you could still have a small window of time to fix it with surgery. It seems in pigs, since it's so painful and so sudden, there isn't time to fix it since the pain would be too much for the pig to handle and then it would go into shock.
I also guess pain-related shock in pigs is deadly, while in humans you can recover. I feel bad she was in such pain at the end. Terribly sad. I just can't wait to get her back from the lab so I can tuck her little box away.
And of course I wouldn't want her to exist in a state of pain. I just wonder that if it was the coccidia, if I had caught it sooner, maybe it wouldn't have gotten so out of control. It still seems odd to me that she wasn't able to get rid of it no matter what we did. There seem to be pigs in worse condition on the medical board that bounce back.
I've read a bunch on intussuseption in humans and dogs since finding out about this. I did read that in humans it's an infant-thing and in dogs you could still have a small window of time to fix it with surgery. It seems in pigs, since it's so painful and so sudden, there isn't time to fix it since the pain would be too much for the pig to handle and then it would go into shock.
I also guess pain-related shock in pigs is deadly, while in humans you can recover. I feel bad she was in such pain at the end. Terribly sad. I just can't wait to get her back from the lab so I can tuck her little box away.
Don't feel too badly. I have had pigs that, upon necropsy, were in seriously bad condition and I'd never have known it. I think they have a different threshhold for pain than other creatures.
The coccidia is always there. Some other condition/situation just presented it with an opportunity to thrive.
You really did do an excellent job. And she's doing a real service to the guinea pig world in that lab. Make sure you tell her that when you get her back.
The coccidia is always there. Some other condition/situation just presented it with an opportunity to thrive.
You really did do an excellent job. And she's doing a real service to the guinea pig world in that lab. Make sure you tell her that when you get her back.