Newborn doing worse--help with feeding: How much?!

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mmeadow
Supporter 2004-2017

Post   » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:45 pm


I'm posting for advice about the two day old newborn skinny in this thread. His mother had a c-section and is ignoring him. He cannot figure out how to grab her nipple.

Our feedings are holding him at around 85 grams, but he was spunkier yesterday. Yesterday he showed some interest in hay, but not today. His poops are tiny and somewhat hard. We suspect he isn't getting enough liquid.

We have been giving him a wet slurry of Critical Care mixed with water and a little kitten milk replacer. (We use a tiny 0.5 ml syringe and we don't believe he has aspirated.) Since he came home about 24 hours ago we've given him about 8 ccs of this, plus about 2 ccs of water.

We are concerned that we need to give more liquid. How much food and liquid should we be aiming to give him per day? In your experience of newborns who were not nursing at all or eating on their own, how much did you feed? How much is total replacement--how much CC/pellet mush, water, etc?

Do we know that the kitten milk replacer is a bad thing?

Would an oral rehydrator like Pedialyte be better than water? Can you subque a newborn?

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sus4rabbitsnpigs

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:01 am


Yes, no milk. They can't take dairy.

CC or pellet mash is better. You can offer it off a spoon or leave a shallow bowl in his cage. You should feed him every hour if he isn't eating on his own.

Pedialyte is good. I don't know if I'd sub q a newborn. They're tiny and it may stress him out too much.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:12 am


Do we know that the kitten milk replacer is a bad thing?
Yes, we know for a fact this is a bad thing.

Critical care is the only thing you should be using.

I seem to remember that when Angela handfed the unweaned babies she gave them a few ccs in a syringe (over the course of a day), and then left the rest in a bowl, which they lapped up.

I wouldn't subcue a newborn personally.

I believe the cc recommendations are on the back of the cannister - I think this is where the 50ccs a day comes from (probably per kg). I'd work backwards from this (although currently I'm giving a 1 2/3 pound pig more than twice that per day, and she's barely maintaining).

I don't know that I'd use pedialite with a newborn either, but others may have different opinions.

Good luck - I hope he pulls through.

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sus4rabbitsnpigs

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:22 am


I used pedialite on those newborns when I had them first? What does it say on the can for newborn babies?

CC or a pellet mash is a better replacement than dairy or replacements with meat products.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:31 am


Ah, I forgot you had them first.

I just remembered that little Taffy, Sundae's cagemate, was one of them.

:-(

Ledasmom

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:36 am


Will he open his mouth for the nipple at all - I mean, does he mumble at it and drop it, or not take it at all? There may be a problem of not getting the nipple far enough back. I'm no expert on guinea-pig suckling, but with human babies they need to latch on, not just to the nipple, but to the aureola to stimulate milk let-down and production. Of course, the guinea-pig anatomy is considerably different.
Is it possible to safely pry his mouth open and sort of stuff the nipple in, in the hope of stimulating the suckling reflex, or would his mother be completely uncooperative?

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mmercedesmom
Supporter in '09

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:54 am


I used Pedialyte with the CC too. My Pandora wouldn't take as much CC as we thought she should, so we offered her some veggies too. She was 4 or 5 days old though, I think. She was maintaining but not really gaining, for almost a week.

Since he is a Skinny will he need even more than the average newborn, in terms of calories?

BostonPigLover

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:44 am


I hope he pulls through MMeadow. My husband was asking if we could have him last night.

I'm no authority on newborns, I've only raised 2 but they didn't give me any problems. Could he possibly have something wrong with his mouth or teeth that is preventing him from feeding??

Walter always had to eat to keep weight on.

User avatar
Tracy

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:03 pm


Sorry for your struggles, mmeadow. No doubt Mom is feeling lousy post-op; I'm hoping she rounds a corner soon so she can care for Little One. In the meantime, just keep feeding the guy; I'd suggest you try to get more in him than 8ccs...but maybe that's enough for a newborn, I don't know. Feed him anything he'll eat, regardless of "what's best." And are you weighing him to make sure he's at least holding at 85g? Sending good vibes for everyone!

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Tracy

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:09 pm


Oh, another question: Is the new baby in with any piggies besides the mother? Maybe he can learn about eating from others; I've had new additions (though not babies) learn how to eat new veggies by watching/emulating. A social setting is important, I think. You figure, he doesn't know anything -- whether nipples, Critical Care, hay.

C'mon little guy, hang in there!

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mmercedesmom
Supporter in '09

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:11 pm


mmeadow,

How is the little guy doing?? Are there any other nursing mama guinea pigs within range?? Maybe one with plenty of milk could teach him what to do. I know piggie moms who deliver around the same time will usually nurse whichever babies, not just their own.

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mmeadow
Supporter 2004-2017

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:04 pm


Thanks for asking, everyone. We stepped up the Critical Care and water for "Milky" and he is somewhat better today. He's holding his weight, his poops are softer and larger, and he is slightly less lethargic. He won't eat on his own--no lapping up anything, no suckling. (He's already losing some of his small amount of bristly black hairs, which may be normal for skinnies.)

His mother Baby is taking her sweet time getting back from her operation. We're doing subcues and a lot of hand-feeding. However, we know this drill from nursing other post-op piggies and I expect she will bounce back in a couple of days. We've stopped giving her the heavy-duty meds and gone to just Metacam, so she'll be less stoned and more likely to eat. I kind of doubt she's going to develop any maternal instincts, though.

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mmeadow
Supporter 2004-2017

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:12 pm


Baby is on enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) bedause she had a fever the night after her surgery. I suppose that could be decreasing her appetite.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:20 pm


I don't want to start a deliberate conflict or war here, but can someone point me toward citations, literature and/or direct GL member experience which definitively demonstrates that small amounts of dairy, such as KMR, is harmful, especially in the first few days of life?

An ex-rescuer in the Atlanta area used small amounts of KMR with newborns successfully. I'm having a very hard time believing that very small amounts of this, or similar quality products used by rehabbers, would be harmful if 1) used for only the first few initial days, 2) not used exclusively, but in combination with Critical Care, hay, and appropriate vegetables and 3) the youngster likes them and it stimulates him or her to eat.

Do you have any Bactrim? If you do and Baby were mine, I'd be prepared to switch to Bactrim post-op until or unless you know that Baytril is necessary. As you point out, it may be interfering with her appetite. It may also be interfering with her care for Milky. This may be a stretch, but it seems to me if she's already overwhelmed, feeling lousy because of the AB is only going to make her less interested in Milky. She also may be too young herself to be on Baytril unless absolutely necessary.

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snowflakey
E's Moriarity

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:32 pm


Talishan, that sounds like really good advice. I don't have experience with this, but it does seem that Baytril is pretty hard on pigs.

mmeadow, I sure hope Baby and Milky can get strong and thrive for you!

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mmeadow
Supporter 2004-2017

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:41 pm


A discussion of the components of natural cavy milk versus the components of replacement milks milks and their suitability would be interesting. I'd like to move beyond the "cavies are vegan!" conversation stopper, because they aren't vegan for the first few weeks. BUT could we move such a discussion to new thread?

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:52 pm


There already is one, I think. Lemme see if I can find it and link to it.

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:09 pm


Well, crap. Of course I can't find it. I do remember Kleenmama was researching it at one time, though. You might want to email her, and in the meantime I'll shut up about it on this thread.

Tracis
Let Sleeping Pigs Lie

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:31 pm


I hope Baby and her baby will both start eating, soon.

This might be KM's thread:

http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12813

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:57 pm


Josephine gave compelling reasons to avoid it. Her primary argument was that it did not match guinea pig milk. You can find the composition of guinea pig milk on www.guinealynx.info/norms.html Kitten milk replacer and similar things are too fatty.

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