Bordetella - URGENT

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:00 pm


getshelly, I just did a search of bordetella with pinta as the author (posts not topics) and a lot of stuff came up if you want to read about it.

pinta

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:11 pm


I asked my vet about Bordetella vaccinations and she felt since Bordetella just hadn't been an issue in our area it wasn't worth the cost with the amount of pigs we have. I can't remember if she felt there was any risk involved with a vaccination or whether there was any guarantee that it would work.

If you have a definite diagnosis of Bordetella, ask if they know what ABs would work best for that strain and if they don't know, I would suggest putting the other pigs on a preventative course of trimethoprim/sulfa(30-50mg/kg q12h) or baytril(5-10mg/kg q12h) - Hillyer and Quesenberry. H&Q didn't mention how long a course. Doxy might also work but it isn't mentioned in Hillyer and Quesenberry probably because at the time of print of my book, it wasn't commonly used with pigs. A drug sensitivity culture would remove the guesswork.

Up their vitamin C as though they were ill (50-100mg/kg)and make sure they stay hydrated. Handfeed at the first sign of weight loss.

Since Bordetella is so serious it makes sense to treat known exposed pigs as though they have it if the ABs can be well tolerated.

GetShelly
I give

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:35 pm


I just went to my general vet and got the Baytril from him. Mo gets 7.5 ML and Molly gets 5 ML, twice daily, based on weight. I will up their Vitamin C too, good idea.

As far as vaccinations, my general vet, who knows a little about exotics, but is not up on everything, didn't know much about the bordetella vaccine for cavies. He said KSU (Kansas State University Teaching Hospital) might know, but didn't know if it would be worth the risk, now that they have both been exposed.

I guess I just have to take it one step at a time. Does me no good to panic. I need to stay well in case I have to care for them.

pinta

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:57 pm


If they have trouble with the Baytril, at least you can switch to the sulfa. Chlor is also mentioned but I wouldn't use that as a preventative. I'd only use it if I had to.

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salana
GL is Just Peachy

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:06 pm


You don't know anyone with whooping cough, or anyone who has a dog with kennel cough, do you?

Good luck. I freaked out when Einy had pasteurella--these bacteria are horrifying.

GetShelly
I give

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:14 pm


I have wracked my brain. We aren't sick, nobody we know is sick. We don't wear shoes in the house. We hardly ever open our windows. I'm a clean freak. It's a complete mystery.

How did Einy get pasteurella?

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salana
GL is Just Peachy

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:38 pm


I don't know. His first abscess was Staphylococcus aureus, his second pasteurella. Later, before he died, he had a URI with Enterococcus. None of the other pigs have ever shown symptoms of pasteurella, though. Remember, Einy was always more fragile than most pigs. Sometimes similar lethal genes in other species are associated with mast cell problems, so lethal whites could be immunocompromised.

It's still a mystery where your possible bordetella could have come from. You haven't gotten culture results back yet, have you?

GetShelly
I give

Post   » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:44 pm


Yes, I remember Einstein had lots of hurdles in his life. You did an amazing job with him.

You haven't gotten culture results back yet, have you?

No, not to find out what strain. It could take a week. But they seem sure it's bordetella.

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Onihrapiggy

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:54 am


Just did a bit of research Googling Bordetella, and it seems like your pig should have been showing signs of illness before she died.

Bordetella isn't even a common illness amoung guinea pigs. I would have doubts as to the vets conclusion of what your pig died from.

pinta

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:37 am


I know some vets have just assumed Bordetella as a diagnosis but this one seems to have culture results to back up the diagnosis, right?

It isn't common with pigs but it does happen and when it does it's deadly. I know of 2 outbreaks, that killed the majority of the pigs. After symptoms of Bordetella show, it progresses incredibly rapidly. Watering eyes, puffed fur sitting with faces in the cornerof the cage are just some of the symptoms I remember being related. Some of pigs died within hours of showing illness.

GetShelly
I give

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:42 am


My vet didn't make the call. The head Dr. of the Diagnostic/Necropsy Dept. at KSU made the finding based on bacteria he found. It was bordatella, and yes, she did die within 12 hours of showing any signs of illness. The first signs were minor, but progressively got worse the last few hours of her life. I only got to witness the last few moments. It's a nasty, nasty thing, I wouldn't wish on anyone.

klynne

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:35 pm


"I've not heard of vaccinating guinea pigs against bordatella."

I wasn't familiar with this, either.

BUT. In dogs who are assumed to be exposed, one of the first things you do is a bordetella vaccine. It is supposed to lessen the effects of the actual illness, even if it does develop.

Since you have access to university quality info and treatment--I'd check into it.

I agree with the upped C and the ab's, sounds like a good plan.

GetShelly
I give

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:10 pm


I am so frustrated.

I have just gotten back from the University, and actually spoken to the Dr. who did the necropsy. I don't have the official report, but I can paraphrase what I was told.

The lungs were not full of fluid, but did have a mild case of inflammation which they are calling pneumonia. They also saw bacteria in the tissue of the lungs which they assumed to be Bordetella so they sent it off for culture. It did not grow, and remains unidentified. He said Bordetella would have grown quickly, so he is not sure what it was, but does not believe it to be Bordetella any longer.

None of the other major organs were remarkable (heart, kidneys, liver, reproductive, etc.) She appeared to be an overall healthy guinea pig for her age.

The finding of significance was bloat. He said she was pretty bloated when they opened her up. When ask if they found any parasite in the stomach/intestines he said it's hard to tell unless you know what you're looking for. He said some exist naturally, and some do not, and he gave me the run around on that. He said there may be something in his report that he can't remember.

His assumption is that she became so bloated that the air pushed on the lungs causing her to have difficulty breathing, and expire.

The report should be finished by next week, but I have her body back and it sounds like all the testing is complete.

So after all that, I have no real answer. I did not notice her being bloated. I examined her body after death. How could I have missed it if it was severe enough to kill her?

What am I missing here?

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PooksiedAnimals
Supporting my GL Habit

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:14 pm


Who's to say the bloat didn't occur after death? Gut contents can ferment pretty quickly.

I am glad its not bordetella. Something in the way you phrased your first post made me think it wasn't really it, but I wrote it off to wishful thinking (for the health of the rest of your herd).

How frustrating. I'm sorry you're not getting clear answers.

HollyT
Get on your bike.

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:25 pm


Huh. I don't think bloat has ever been noticed in the necropsies I've gotten.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:05 pm


Extreme gas can be post-mortem. If she'd had bloat I'm pretty sure you would have noticed it.

I'm glad they didn't find bordatella.

Sadly, many necropsies are like this - it's frustrating.

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whittibo

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:14 pm


I am so sorry you didn't get any firm answers, but glad it's not Bordatella! Again, so sorry for your loss.

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Lynx
RESIST

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:35 pm


I was wondering if the gas might be post mortem also.

I am sorry you didn't get as much helpful information as you hoped you would but glad it did not turn out to be bordetella.

GetShelly
I give

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:57 pm


I guess I'm relieved and frustrated all in the same breath. More relieved, though.

Would you guys continue with the AB's for Molly and Mo?

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rshevin

Post   » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:28 pm


If they're tolerating them well, I'd continue the full course. If they stop eating or become lethargic, re-evaluate at that point.

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