weight loss in older piggy

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AliceMcmallis
Supporter in '08

Post   » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:47 pm


Is there any way you can aspirate the lump in her neck to confirm that it's a thyroid gland tumour? Have you found the thread on Maggie in your searches? She was about 5 years old, had a thyroid gland tumour, heart issues, etc. and was very tiny when diagnosed.

We tried her on tapazole first and while it lowered her thyroid level, it wasn't enough to really improve her overall condition. We decided to go ahead with the tumour removal, and it worked out extremely well for us.

It might be an option for you to start a course of heart meds first, and see how well that stabilizes her. She may improve considerably, leaving the surgery option a less risky one. (hope that makes sense!) I believe there is a type of tumour that can be around/near the thyroid gland and cause hyperthyroid type symptoms, but not actually change the thyroid values. This might be something for you to investigate further as I'm not positive about it.

If memory serves, we did find kidney issues on Maggie's postmortem, but these were not the cause of her death. Maggie was also on Metacam longterm which may have affected her kidneys.

There are so many factors at play in these situations, it's so difficult to know what to do. My vet and I have agreed that when it reaches a point where the pet is declining when we are doing nothing, we're obligated to try something, even if there's a chance that the something we try could cause more/other issues.

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Tracy

Post   » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:01 pm


Thanks, Alice. Think I did read through Maggie's thread (or parts of it) and will do so again. Yes, lots going on at once. And yes, I thought if Inca can just improve a bit -- whether from thyroid meds or heart meds -- I might consider surgery. But we've got to take one step at a time. I'm waiting to hear back from my vet as to what plan she recommends.

Didn't sound like a good idea to mess with Inca's lump (aspiration nor surgery), but maybe that was mostly my resistance to anesthesia and willingness to presume it's a thyroid tumor without evidence.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:51 pm


. With the stethescope, my vet said her heart was racing -- I think about 400/minute. She said even when they're stressed it's not that fast. When the cardiologist listened, she thought maybe she heard a murmur or an arrythmia, and my vet thought maybe a "gallop." Then the cardiologist listened again and said the puzzling sounds were really respiration, not heart. Only finding with echo was a slightly enlarged left ventricle (I think), and they said there's not enough diagnostically to conclude she's got a heart issue.

I'm going to assume the cardiologist has not dealt with a lot of pigs and is basing a lot of the diagnostics on cat and dog experience. (Pigs don't tend to be a niche market with any specialists).

Our "hyperthyroid" pigs have to remain assumed hyperthyroid as the vet couldn't find the thyroid glands for necropsy. However, based on hyperthyroid cats, we assumed the revved up activity level would be a stress on the heart(confirmed by stethoscope - heart rate was too fast to count) and heart meds would be necessary to keep pig from collapsing. Heart meds helped level things out.

It makes no sense to not give heart meds to a "hyperthyroid" pig with the diagnostics you have. Tapazole and Fortekor can be given concurrently. What is your vet waiting for? Collapse?

With pigs you don't have the timeline for screwing around testing treatments that you have with larger animals. Sometimes you have to treat the symptoms as well as the cause and in the end, as long as the pig improves you're winning. Fortekor is an extremely safe heart med. There is no benefit to not treating a pig with a murmur or an arrythmia and slightly enlarged left ventricle for the heart issues indicated .

Again, what is your vet waiting for? Heart failure brought on by hyperthyroidism? Or is your vet gambling that the "hyperthyopridism" can be brought under control before the heart fails.

That's a hell of a gamble.

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Tracy

Post   » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:17 pm


Thanks, Pinta. I was on board for heart (for a while) and trying to convince my vet. Figured we'd do the echo if that's what would shed light (rather than just my theory about clinical signs Inca has had that can point to heart). Then both docs didn't see "enough" with the echo to piece it together, though it certainly sounded like some abnormalities were perceived via both stethescope and echo (I was there the whole time).

After reading stuff this morn (about cats), it's all clear to me. And I've notified my vet what I want -- to treat heart and thyroid, but perhaps not concurrently at first (help heart first). She's more on board with a tapazole plan (only), but I'll bet she'll prescribe Lotensin if I'm persistent.

Now I'll reread some heart threads to see how fast improvement might occur...or can someone give me s sense here and save me some time searching? Once Inca's heart is a bit better, we'll start tapazole. Hope she can hang in there for the ride ahead!

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:21 pm


heart threads to see how fast improvement might occur
It depends greatly on the pig. I've had pig show results in as little as a couple of days, and other pigs have taken 3 weeks.

pinta

Post   » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:52 pm


https://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25375

"request for heart pig stories" sticky.

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Tracy

Post   » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:26 am


Today is Day 1 of tapazole for Inca's hyperthyroid. Vet explained that giving both thyroid and heart meds would be too much -- sounds like a redundancy to me. Her heart is racing because everything is racing due to thyroid. Reducing the excess thyroid hormones should help everything calm down within a week or sooner (if our dose is not quite right, may take longer). Giving both meds may result in a dangerous drop in blood pressure.

After the tapazole kicks in, hopefully Inca can start gaining some weight back (or at least stop losing). By my scale (just shows 25-gram intervals) she seemed around 620g this morn -- poor thing. And we will likely do some blood work in a few weeks (if I'm not too nervous about the anesthesia) to check Inca's kidney function; hyperthyroid masks kidney problems, yet when thyroid levels improve kidney disease is sometimes revealed.

Fingers crossed we're on a road to recovery for my little girl! She just turned 5-1/2 and is nearly half the weight of one of her sisters (who is same age).

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Bugs Mom

Post   » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:44 am


No advice here just hoping things start to go well for you and Inca.

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Mum
I GAVE, dammit!

Post   » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:51 am


I hope you see some results soon.

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mmeadow
Supporter 2004-2022

Post   » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:59 am


Good luck with Inca! Are you dosing once or twice a day? I believe we were doing twice, based on some data my partner found showing that a divided dose was more effective.

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Tracy

Post   » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:19 am


Inca's dose seems small compared to the few doses I've seen posted here on GL. But maybe it's a stronger concentration; I don't fully understand dosing of meds. Vet prescribed .07 twice daily. I told her my preference is to be cautious and then increase if necessary (because of the effect on kidneys), and she said I can do once daily if I want. But I'm gonna give as per instructions unless I observe something concerning with Inca.

My vet had discussed the whole case with hospital's "guru" on hyperthyroid (has treated thousands of hyperthyroid cats, on which piggy protocol is based) as well as a cardiologist and another doc (maybe head of critical care?). So I feel I've got a panel of experts helping us out and need to just trust them now.

mmeadow, Scooby's name has come up every so often. Sounds like she was improving well until her thyroid "storm" -- condolences again about her, but hopefully they will learn with each case, right? Until they are more confident about best treatment. Inca will further the cause, too.

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mmeadow
Supporter 2004-2022

Post   » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:39 am


I can't read John's cryptic notes on Scooby's meds. I'll get him to decipher for me and then post tonight.

As I posted earlier, she definitely improved--she became more active, had a much better attitude, and ate much more on her own. We continued to hand-feed her Critical Care, but not vast quantities. (Before the methimazole kicked in, she was getting a whopping 60 ccs/day, and even that wasn't enough to stabilize her weight. AND it took more than 3 hours a day.)

Again to repeat--if we could have a do-over, we might continue to increase her dose beyond that which got these results. John wonders whether the thyroid storm could have been prevented by additional suppression of her thyroid function.

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