A stone in the ureter , can anyone help

Talishan
You can quote me

Post   » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:23 pm


1080 mg/tablet x 12 tablets = 12,960 mg
12,960 mg/40 mL syrup with orange = 324 mg/mL of suspension

324 mg/mL of suspension x 0.43 cc = 139.32 (say 140 mg) given to the guinea pig every 12 hours.

TX Rustlers, how heavy was your pig?

Anyone, feel free to doublecheck my math also.

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:21 am


That image is very similar to Zachary's condition.

I'd want to check the urine pH before using a urine alkalinizer. There is still a lot of debate as to whether or not Polycitra has any value in the treatment of stones, and in some cases could be contraindicated. Current research is looking at urine acidifers instead. Your friend should discuss with her vet before proceeding either way.

My only advice would be to discuss very aggressive fluid therapy, and pain management if needed. Be very careful about the use of NSAIDs such as Metcam (Meloxicam) if the pig is showing any signs of dehydration.

TX Rustlers

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:09 am


Around 1000g and the dose was .5cc

I would personally use metacam, I think concern about kidney damage is a moot point

SammiD

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:33 am


Gizzy I have sent you the information about the vets that I go to with my Guinea pigs via personal email, but I will post them here too just incase.

Bridges Veterinary Surgery
at Pugh's Garden Centre
Ty Nant Rd
Morganstown
Radyr
Cardiff
South Glamorgan
CF15 8LB
029 2084 2440

The vet who is the cavy vet is Mark Bridges.

Hope that he gets better soon.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:20 am


I agree that this particular's pig situation looks pretty dire, but at the same time, the whole point of supportive care is to maintain quality of life for as long as possible -- not hasten death. It is well documented that use of NSAIDs in dehydrated or renal impaired animals can induce acute renal failure; I've seen the effects first-hand. There is also evidence that the use of Polycitra in some cases is contraindicated.

No one here is a veterinarian, and regardless of the level of veterinary expertise we might have access to, we haven't examined this pig ourselves or know anything about its condition other than it has stones. I just think we would be remiss not to make the owner aware of the potential risks involved with the various treatment options available, so that she (with the help of her vet) can make informed decisions.

gizzy

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:37 am


sef1268, an excellent point !!! And one I totally agree with ,

I would not recommend to Jacks keeper any treatments , before running it past a vet ,

I am a very firm believer in not using a guinea pig as a guinea pig

gizzy

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:42 am


Thank for that SammiD , i have cut and passed that address to an email and sent it to Rebecca

Charybdis

Post   » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:23 pm


I am sad to see those x rays. It does indeed look like what we have seen before. If this were my pig I would give fluids and manage pain with Torb -- I tend to agree with Sef about the NSAIDS although I use them with pigs whose kidneys are not compromised.

gizzy

Post   » Sat May 01, 2010 6:08 am


Hi just heard from Jack's keeper, and wanted to run this past you guys .

Jacks vet , wants to keep Jack on metacam at 0.15ml of 1.5mg per ml (dog strength ) twice a day .

He is 840g 3.5 years old and is in no apparent discomfort , I know this med has good anti inflammatory properties ,that may help the bladder , though he is in no pain , when, on the odd coasions he do's pass blood

but would have thought 0.15ml twice a day (aprox 16 drops ) would be harmful to the renal system .

Also injections to flush Jack ,

Any thoughts please would be appreciated

Tracis
Let Sleeping Pigs Lie

Post   » Sun May 02, 2010 2:34 am


Sending good thoughts for Jack, and I hope the Metacam helps him to stay comfortable.

There are some threads on this link that discuss higher dosages of Metacam:
LINKS - Metacam® / Meloxicam

Metacam and Rimadyl have also been used longer-term to help relieve the daily pain of arthritis, as discussed on this thread:
Request for Arthritis treatment protocols

gizzy

Post   » Sun May 02, 2010 4:37 am


thanks for that Tracis

interesting !!!!

Victoria75

Post   » Sun May 02, 2010 6:36 am


I think using drugs to stop the pain is the right way as well.. even in some medical places I remember vaguely reading that giving strong pain killers in cases where it can hasten death is still the right thing to do and it is not euthanasia - but there is no better choice. But I do not know that much about medicine or veterinary science, this is just a feeling.. I hope the pig does get better or does not suffer too much.

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Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun May 02, 2010 11:02 am


Aggressive pain management is absolutely appropriate when the animal is clearly in pain. If the animal is otherwise behaving normally - eating, drinking, mobile, bright and alert - I really don't agree with using a drug (especially in a higher dose range) that can potentially cause more harm than good.

Standard therapeutic dose of Metacam is .1-.2mg/kg every 24 hours. For a 800g pig, that would roughly .10cc.

Stones in ureters puts much more load on the kidneys than bladder stones. Has this vet done a blood panel to determine kidney function? I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but high doses of Metacam in an already renal-compromised animal can induce acute renal failure.

NSAIDs have their place in supportive care; absolutely. But if this were my pig, given all of the information we have been given here and based on my own experiences, I would use Metacam very judiciously, and aggressively use fluid therapy to help keep the pig well-hydrated.

If pain becomes an issue, then certainly it's worth going with Metacam in an appropriate dose, or with an opiate.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Sun May 02, 2010 11:16 am


Wanted to add...the manufacturer of Metcam (Boehringer Ingelheim) recommends a dosage of roughly 1 drop per pound of animal.

TX Rustlers

Post   » Tue May 04, 2010 11:01 am


Per pound of which type of animal and which strength?

Metacam comes in different strengths and cats get a lot lower dose than guinea pigs per gram of body weight, just for an example.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Tue May 04, 2010 11:27 am


Standard oral/canine suspension -- 1.5mg/ml.

gizzy

Post   » Thu May 06, 2010 9:24 am


Jacks keeper , decided on the advice of her vet that the only way Jack had any chance , was to operate , despite the very high risk of failure.

Jack was scheduled for the opp this morning . but was postponed

And I just received this message from Jacks Keeper

QUOTE >  cant believe it. They done an x-ray to see where the stones are before they opperate. And most of the stones have gone. I cant tell you how happy I feel at the moment. We still have to give him meds and seringe feed him and constent care till the rest hopfully pass. >Unquote .

I’d say that is one lucky Jack .

thanks for all you input , i will keep you posted on Jacks progress

gizzy

Post   » Tue May 11, 2010 6:15 am


Latest pic of Jack , see how the stone is breaking up and going to the bladder ,

He is still on heavy meds I believe , but is bleeding far less frequently , still being syringe fed

His keeper reports problems getting his weight back , and describes him as bony ,

though I have seen a video of Jack after this x-ray , and he look better than would be expected .

Any thoughts on way to go from hear ???


Image

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Tue May 11, 2010 6:40 am


I'd keep pushing fluids aggressively and stay very watchful of any signs of dehydration (crusty or sunken eyes being the most obvious thing).

Handfeeding is good...does he still eat veggies on his own? Unfortunately, significant weight loss seems like a common problem with ureteral stones and he most likely won't gain it back.

Sending lots of good thoughts to Jack and his owner.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue May 11, 2010 9:07 am


Your xray is very worrying to me. It does not look to me like there are fewer stones but possibly more stones. They do not pass out of the ureter easily. Your original xray had some stray stones to the side that could be the same stones in the bladder or the other ureter. First photo:

Image

I added this pic also to your thread (hope that's okay).

Hoping for the best for him.

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