Proper Shilintong Dosing?

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BiscuitJones01

Post   » Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:21 pm


Hello!
I have recently been looking into shilintong for one of my guineas and am hoping to get a clarification on the dosing for the herbal medication. I have read the section on shilintong in the bladder stones section, and understand the dosing there:
  • 1 pill in about 2.0 cc water and syringed 1.0 cc twice/day

But was wondering specifically which brand it is for?

My first guess was that it was the Solstice version as that is the only one labelled shilintong on fareastginseng. However as I continued to research and read through other threads, it appears that there are two extremely similarly packaged shilintong brands that are the most common and frequently appearing. One is distributed by Shen Clinic and manufactured by “Guangdong Enterlife Pharmaceutical co. Ltd.” and the other distributed by Solstice and manufactured by “Anhui Dongshengyoubang Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd.”.

I am unsure, but it appears that at some point fareastginseng may have swapped from the Shen Clinic/Guangdong manufactured version to the Solstice/Anhui manufactured version. This would make sense as in the original thread it is noted on that:
  • “The ingredient is Coin Leaved Desmonium [sic] / 19g+”
Which does not add up with the Solstice version as it has listed on the side:
  • “Coin Leaved Desmodium 1.75g”
As the amount of herb per serving. The serving size is listed as 5 pills, so one pill would be .35g of Desmodium. Unless the 19g shilintong is a listing for the entire bottle and not a serving or tablet the discrepancy is large.

As of now my best guess is that the version in question is the Shen Clinic/Guangdong manufactured version, and I have now ordered it to replace the Solstice version I originally got. Unfortunately the image links to the product on the original thread seem to be broken, so I cannot be absolutely certain.


Onto actual dosing concerns

The bladder stones page says in essence:
  • 1 pill dissolved in about 2.0 cc water and syringed 1.0 cc twice/day
The earliest dosing post on the original thread matches up:

Recipe 1
  • “I just took a pill and let it sit in about 1/2 tspn of water. Then I filled 2 x 1cc syringes and give her one in the a.m. and one in the evening.”
However upon reading further it is stated:

Recipe 2
  • “It seems I can get 3 x 1cc syringes out of 1 pill by adding 1/2 teaspoon of water to it. I give her one syringe in the morning and one at night.”
Which would be ⅔ of a tablet per day, rather than 1 whole tablet which isn’t too much of a difference. However the dosing is further challenged by a different thread where the same person stated:

Recipe 3
  • “I simply let 1 tablet dissolve in about 2-3 tablespoons of water. Then, I syringed her 1cc twice/day”
Which would be around 2/30th (or 1/15th but that’s a matter of semantics) of a tablet per day if dissolved in 2 tbsp, and 2/44th (1/22nd) of a tablet per day if dissolved in 3 tbsp.
[Math for reference: 2tbsp=29.5735cc rounded to 29.6 then to 30 for the calculations. 3tbsp=44.3603cc, rounded to 44.4 then to 44 for the calculations.]
Which is much different than a whole tablet, and much different to the dosing provided on the bladder stones page. The most recent dosing was recipe 3, but all of these were provided in 2005, at around the same time frame (Recipe 1: May 11th 2005. Recipe 2: May 16th 2005. Recipe 3: July 26th 2005)
Additionally, a different user mentions that “1 pill dissolved in about 2.0 cc water and syringed 1.0 cc twice/day” worked for them on two separate versions of the shilintong, likely the Guangdong and Anhui versions judging from the descriptions given.


So, which recipe is the correct one? And for which brand?

I am very, very nervous about accidentally overdosing my boy, which is why I’m posting this to hopefully make 100% sure I have the correct product and the correct dosage.

Many thanks,
V

P.S.
I feel that it is pertinent to mention that I do not know if it is proper etiquette to mention another user by name unless attempting to summon them, so I haven’t. However, if need be I do have the threads and user written down and will post thread links to help.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:29 pm


What a thorough bunch of research you have done on what is here at Guinea Links!

I will read this over again in the morning and see if I can add anything useful. But can say that you're welcome to mention any poster here and you can also email them using the board mailer if you wish to. Members from some time ago may no longer have valid emails but it's worth a try.

bpatters
And got the T-shirt

Post   » Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:10 am


It's an art, not a science. And it's an herb concoction, which means there's no standardized amount of active ingredient in it. The strength would be determined by when the herb was harvested, the conditions it was grown under, and how it was processed.

Given that all those posters used varying amounts of varying strengths of shilintong, I think you'd be safe in picking whatever looks best to you.

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Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:49 am


Thanks, bpatters. Your post says it all.

Lots of detail on the precise identification of the product on the stones page (which you have read):
https://www.guinealynx.info/stones.html#shilintong

BiscuitJones01

Post   » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:27 pm


Thank you for your responses!

I do understand that there is very little scientific research done on this herb, so there is not a true dosing, but I suppose I was attempting to find a sort of standard dosing amongst the various doses listed.

Originally I was going to compile all the data I could find on manufacturers/preparations of shilintong and the recipes that users created for their guineas, and put it into one huge document but I decided against it (I will likely still compile the data. If I do I will probably post my findings on this thread for future users to reference if needed).

Essentially I was hoping to see if there may be a “standard dosing” among users of shilintong products before I compiled a large chunk of data.

So far I believe that 1 pill dissolved in about 2.0 cc water and syringed 1.0 cc twice/day seems to be the most popular for both common brands, but I am unsure if there is the same amount of desmodium in each pill in each different product, so I’ll compare when I receive the Shen Clinic shilintong.

daj

Post   » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:39 pm


I used 1 Solstice brand per day for years. I dissolved it in a sort of soupy mash of hay, pellets and other ingredients. I had a pig with stones that he successfully passed twice.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:04 pm


Keep in mind that your compilation of data will only give you an idea of what people have given their guinea pig. There is no (as far as I know) scientific data backed by a study of guinea pigs that compares different doses of the product and its efficacy.

The rat study I cite seems to talk about one dose (does not vary dose) and I have trouble figuring out how much is given (dose in mg is not given):
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8461944/
Effect of Desmodium styracifolium-triterpenoid on calcium oxalate renal stones
H Hirayama 1, Z Wang, K Nishi, A Ogawa, T Ishimatu, S Ueda, T Kubo, T Nohara
Affiliations expand
PMID: 8461944 DOI: 10.1111/j.1464-410x.1993.tb15906.x
Abstract
We have studied the inhibitory effects of Desmodium styracifolium-triterpenoid (Ds-t) (extracted from Desmodium styracifolium (Osbeck) Merr, a herbal medicine) on the formation of calcium oxalate renal stones induced experimentally by ethylene glycol (EG) and 1 alpha(OH)D3 (1 alpha D3) in rats. The incidence of urinary stone formation was 81% in the control group, which received EG and 1 alpha D3, and 29% in the Ds-t group, which received EG and 1 alpha D3 supplemented by Ds-t. The serum calcium (Ca) concentration in the Ds-t group was significantly elevated and urinary Ca excretion was markedly reduced. Urinary excretion of citrate (Cit), a factor that prevents stone formation, was significantly increased in the Ds-t group. Excretion of urinary phosphorus (P), which was elevated to a significantly greater extent in the controls than in the Ds-t group, was increased in both groups. The increase in urine volume in the Ds-t group was significantly greater than in the control group. The 24-h creatinine clearance rate (Ccr) was significantly lower in the controls. These findings suggest that Ds-t inhibits the formation of Ca oxalate stones in rat kidneys by increasing the output of urine, decreasing the excretion of calcium and increasing the urinary excretion of citrate. Ds-t may be useful in preventing the recurrence of urinary Ca oxalate stones in the clinical setting.

BiscuitJones01

Post   » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 pm


Ah!
I hadn't thought to attempt to access the whole report! Since I (luckily!) know my way around academic papers and I managed to get access to the whole report I did some reading. You are correct in saying that they do not list dosing in the abstract, however in the body of the whole paper where they have to list everything they did, they mention the dosing as 0.6mg/kg/day. I will note this is with the caveat that they didn't use pre-made desmodium, they made their own. Full paragraph from the study detailing both the making of the solution and the dosing (dosing is in underlined bold italics for convenience):
  • "Desmodium styracifolium (Ds) was extracted from the whole plant by the following method. Whole plants of Desmodium styracifolium (Ds) (1 kg), Desmodii herba, were extracted with refluxing methanol (MeOH). Removal of the solvent under reduced pressure gave the MeOH extract (50 g), which was partitioned into butanol (n-BuOH - H20). Removal of the solvent from the organic phase gave the n-BuOH extract. Separation of the n-BuOH extract by Sephadex LH-20 column chromatography (MeOH) provided a triterpenoid (21.6 g) and a flavonoid fraction (9.73 g). The triterpenoid fraction (Ds-t) was purified by silica gel column chromatography (CHC13: MeOH:H20)=9: 2:O.l 7:3:0.5) to give the Ds-t compounds (Kubo et al., 1989) (Figs 1 and 2). Ds-t was dissolved in distilled water and 0.6 mg/kg/day were administered orally. This dosage was based on preliminary studies which revealed neither toxicity nor side effects."(Hirayama et al., 1993)
I'm fairly certain it isn't legal for me to post a PDF of this report. However, I find that emailing the authors for a copy generally yields results. (Journals make the money, while the authors have to pay to publish. Authors usually are more than willing to forgo the paywall and provide a copy.) This citations are so the academic journal doesn't go on the offensive if they catch wind of me quoting the whole paragraph.

Hirayama, H., et al. “Effect of Desmodium Styracifolium-Triterpenoid on Calcium Oxalate Renal Stones.” British Journal of Urology, vol. 71, no. 2, Feb. 1993, pp. 143–47. DOI.org (Crossref), https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1464-410X.1993.tb15906.x.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:49 pm


Very interesting! You have good research skills.

BiscuitJones01

Post   » Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:04 am


Thank you!

I forgot to mention that the dosing is, by my estimate, likely for a far more concentrated version of the desmodium. Since they just grabbed the whole plant and distilled, rather than using one part of the plant (my best guess from the research I've done is that commercially they use the leaves, or "grasses" as one put it, of the plant) it looks to be more concentrated, so I'd say take the dosing with a grain of salt.

The report also does cite a few other reports in reference to desmodium, so I'll likely attempt to hunt those down too.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:39 am


Cool! At the end of your research, if you wanted to pull what you have learned together, I could add an entry in the Records forum and link to it from the section about shilintong. The Records Forum is kind of an informal, more condensed place to put interesting information and links to posts on the main forum.
https://www.guinealynx.info/records

I wonder if any scientific analysis has been done to determine the amount of "active ingredient" in the most commonly used pills.

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